Dyson vs. McCain: Violence, Hip-Hop, & Kids

In September 2000, the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee, chaired by Senator John McCain, held a hearing to investigate the marketing of violence to children. Michael Eric Dyson was invited to testify as part of a panel. The following are some excerpts from their discussion:

Dyson: I think that what we’ve heard today is very compelling in terms of the necessity for an equally shared responsibility about the violence of American society, and how that violence is packaged, shaped, redistributed on the open market. And the marketing of violence, the seductions of violence, the titillations that are associated with violence, the erotic sheen that often accompanies violence, is something that is deeply problematic to many of us who are parents—like I am of three children—who are concerned about shaping the egos, shaping the mind-set, shaping the perspectives of young people in order to deter them from a life that is fruitless and to redirect them into paths and channels that are very productive.

But the problem I have with so much of the discourse surrounding this issue of violence is that, implicitly, there is a function of censorship. We know that there is no explicit censorship. We know that all of us share in common the development of responses that defend the First Amendment. But there’s an implicit censorship that goes on when we begin to give the voice and microphone to some groups of people and not to others. So what I’m concerned about—I’ll make three very quick points and end here—what I’m concerned about is the necessity to hear from those young voices, those very powerful voices, sometimes admittedly angry voices, sometimes bitter voices, sometimes voices that are dipped into the deep pools of profanity, sometimes vulgarity. But I’m not so much concerned about the curse words, as the cursed worlds they occupy, and what hurt they experience in order to produce some of the deeply reflective, deeply self-critical, and also deeply problematic lyrics that they put forth.

So I think first of all, what’s important about hearing from those young people—a disproportionate number of whom, by the way, happen to be African American and Latino voices—is that they tell truths about their situations that are avoided in textbooks and schools, and we dare say, in the United States Senate at some points, and synagogues and so on. The reality is that the violence is old and it has been around a long time. But the reality also is that we haven’t really attacked certain forms of violence as equally as we have others. So that “The Duke” John Wayne would not be brought before a Senate committee to give a mea culpa for the way in which he romanticized and idealized this kind of western machismo that, dare we say, has informed even the Senate careers of some of our colleagues here today. But at the same time, Snoop Doggy Dogg is brought front and center, rhetorically and symbolically, if not literally, to talk about why it is that he chooses to make a living by telling the truth about what he understands. So violence in John Wayne is acceptable. Violence in Snoop Doggy Dogg is not acceptable.

Number two, violence matters most when it occurs in the mainstream and not so-called outside of the mainstream. This is why we applaud President Clinton for having the FTC put forth this report after Columbine. But the reality is violence pervaded America way before Columbine. It struck Latino and African American communities in disproportionate numbers. And yet the rapper L. L. Cool J, by no means a hardcore rapper, released an album yesterday that contained these lyrics, “I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way / but Columbine happens in the ghetto every day / But when the crap goes down / y’all ain’t got nothing to say.” Now this is from a person who is well-received as an actor and as an entertainer in American society, but he understands that there has been a targeting—with vicious specificity—of African American and Latino communities when it comes to violence.

Those forms of violence are seen to be much more pathological and naturalized in a way that is destructive. And the violence of the larger society is not taken seriously until that violence happens in a mainstream white community where now it becomes a national problem, and a public health problem, and a plague. And we have to ask why is it that these voices that have been locked out, that have been marginalized, are seen [by their peers] as a necessity to articulate their understanding of the world, and sometimes violently so, to make a very powerful point?

Number three, if we’re really concerned about the lives of kids, then we’ve got to not shred the safety net in terms of welfare reform, [because it] targets poor black and Latino and poor white kids in very specific ways. Because if there’s diminished capacity for providing health care, and providing child care, for your children, that is much more destructive than a rap lyric that may or may not lead to a violent behavior. Also, we have got to stop this war on drugs that really has translated, as Lani Guinier said, into a war on black and Latino youth. And as you know, Mr. McCain, the reality is that a report was issued earlier this year that the human rights of many African American and Latino youth are being violated. A report from Amnesty International was released saying that the American government ought to be ashamed of itself for the way in which it has stigmatized black and Latino youth in disproportionate fashion, leading to their arrest and their imprisonment, and therefore stigmatizing their lives for the duration of their time in this nation.

Furthermore, I heard this morning about the Senator expressing outrage about the video game that deals with the electrocution of a human being. And as repulsive as that is, the reality is, is that in Texas one hundred thirty some odd people have been legally executed on capital punishment for a capital crime. And a disproportionate number of those people happen to be black and Latino men. So I don’t want to get rid of a game that may push our buttons in very problematic and provocative ways until we get rid of the very practices themselves that the game points to.

Finally, I think that—

McCain: Mr. Dyson, I would agree with you if we still held public executions.

Dyson: Well, it’s not about public executions. It’s about if we do them in private, Senator McCain. The horrible shame that is going on in private is not publicly talked about. The horrible shame is not simply the exposure of the execution, it’s the numbers of black and Latino men who are being subjected to this form of, I think, racially motivated legal lynching. So I think that, you’re absolutely right in terms of the publicity, but the reality is that it’s more shameful that it’s not made more public so that more people can be outraged by it. Two more points—thank you so much for your indulgence.

Another reason these young people have to be heard from—and we ought to hear their voices—is that they bear witness to the invisible suffering of the masses. And this is what I mean about publicity. We have to hear what they’re talking about. We have to be confronted with what they’re talking about even if we find it personally repulsive and reprehensible. So that for me, stigmatizing blacks, and avoiding the collective responsibility for the drug war, is something that needs to be talked about. Master P said, “I don’t own no plane / I don’t own no boat / I don’t ship no dope from coast to coast.” So we know that the flooding of black and Latino communities—whether intentionally or not, inadvertently or not—with drugs is not talked about as deeply and systematically as it needs to be. And yet the stigmatization of those who abuse drugs, who happen to be nonviolent offenders who end up in jail, needs to be talked about as well. And it’s talked about much in rap music.

Finally, in terms of racial profiling, the late rapper Tupac Shakur said, “Just the other day I got lynched by some crooked cops / and to this day those same cops on the beat getting major pay / But when I get my check, they taking tax out / so we paying the cops to knock the blacks out.” Now here’s a problem for commerce: the subsidization of your own oppression through tax dollars that lead to the imprisonment of your own people. That is something that needs to be talked about, and [often wouldn’t be] were it not for these R-rated lyrics—that yes, contain repulsive narratives about rape, murderous fantasies that really are deeply destructive. But what’s even more destructive is the environment in which they operate, the world in which they exist, and the world that curses them in a very serious and systematic fashion.

I’ll end here. We need to hear those voices because as Mr. [Danny] Goldberg said earlier—and as you’ve already alluded to very brilliantly, Senator McCain—many of these young people are disaffected from the political process. And one of the reasons they’re disaffected from the political process—we can look here today. They’re not being represented. With all due respect to the ingenuity of the Senate, for the most part, Mr. Inouye and others are exceptions, this is a white male club. And if those people felt that they could have their own viewpoints, perspectives, and sensitivities respected in a profound way and [with] a kind of empathy that says that the person sitting across the board from me is really concerned about me because he or she has been through what I’ve been through, and therefore they know the circumstances under which I’ve existed, then we would have much more faith in the political process, that [it] would at least alleviate some of the suffering and the pain.

So for me, the reality is this: many of these young hip-hoppers certainly need to be talked to, and talked about, but more importantly, we should listen to them. Because the messages that they often put in our faces—that we don’t want to hear because they make us uncomfortable—are the messages that we need to hear. The political process can only be enhanced; the American democratic project can only be strengthened; and the citizenship of America can only be deepened, with a profound engagement with some of the most serious problems that these young people represent—and tell us about. This is why—and I’ll end here—Nas, a young rapper, said: “It’s only right that I was born to use mics / And the stuff that I write is even tougher than dice.” Absolutely true, and the reason it’s tougher than dice—because they’re rolling their dice in a world where they’re taking a gamble that their voices can be heard, that their viewpoints can be respected, and that their lives can be protected.

Thank you very kindly, Senator.

McCain: Well, I thank you very much for a very strong statement and a very eloquent one, Mr. Dyson. That is the intention of this committee—to try to get testimony from, and representation from, young Americans, especially when we’re talking about some issues that are coming up such as this business of MP3, and Napster, and the music, and who’s going to get what. And what accessibility are young people going to have to that music. But again, I would argue to you, if these young people don’t have the $500,000 to buy a ticket—by the way, Mr. [Jack] Valenti, even though at least one of your witnesses couldn’t be here, I noticed that he is able to host a big multimillion dollar soft money fundraiser; [he] had the time to do that, but not to appear before this committee—then these young people will not obviously think it matters whether they would take the time or effort if there is no resonance to their views, and their hopes, and their dreams, and their aspirations.

And you mentioned my presidential campaign. The one thing I heard from young Americans all over this country: they don’t feel they are represented here.

Dyson: I’ve been a severe critic of corporate capitalism and the way that it has disproportionately affected the American political process. And I think we shouldn’t simply point our fingers at Hollywood. My God, if we’re going to talk about the ways that corporate capitalism has undermined the best interests of the citizenry, we’ve got to start with the United States Senate. And not just the Senate, but Congress and local municipalities and governments, because justice is being bought. I think your point is absolutely right, and brilliant and brave, by the way. But this is what I want to say: they’re not concerned about—they don’t even know about a $500,000 per ticket soiree that might be held—

McCain: I disagree with you. I disagree with you, sir. I talked to them. They know there’s something wrong.

Dyson: They do. They do. But I am saying that about the soirée.

McCain: They may not know that it’s $500,000, but they know there’s something wrong.

Dyson: No, they know. Absolutely right, Senator McCain. I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying that they don’t know specifically the details about a $500,000 soiree. But they do know, as you’ve said, that money is corrupting the political process. But they don’t just simply look at Mr. Valenti. They don’t simply look at the recording industry—

McCain: Well, I don’t allege that they do.

Dyson: —because the recording industry has given them an opportunity to express their viewpoints, which the United States Senate, with the exception of Ed Brooke and Carol Moseley-Braun, has not given much opportunity for young African American people to have a political career at the highest levels and echelons of representative democracy.

McCain: Thank you, Mr. Dyson. And I appreciate our exchange.

Dyson: Thank you, sir.